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  2. Karen Loveless

    Nicholas, Nick?
    I love your new post. A lot of what you believe is what many others believe too…my belief is some songwriting experts get a bit foggy when they drink to much cool-aid! And I think this expert has totally consumed the whole gallon!

    You are correct, the only difference between a song and a poem…is music!My thoughts to her would be this..

    Just like in life, as in song,
    we are all looking for structure…and not every path we walk will appear the same…nor does it need to be…how boring would that be?

    And I’m thinking one of the best songs ever written (in my opinion only) has no chorus… “The Way We Were”…I’m glad the composer decided not to follow her line of thinking….I can imagine it as a poem…

    • Nicholas Tozier

      Either name is fine. 🙂

      The author has definitely had success as a commercial songwriter, but clearly that shouldn’t exempt any writer from basic research.

      Some commercial songwriters succeed by thinking more and more inside of the box that music execs and publishing houses draw for them, and these songwriters don’t seem to realize that there’s a rich tradition of poetry and music that dwells entirely outside of all that processed, mass-market music. I really hope the author hasn’t warped too many writers with her irresponsibility.

      Thanks so much for your input, Karen.

    • Nicholas Tozier

      Thanks Jeff. I’m relieved to find that I’m not the only one who cares about this stuff.

  4. Martin

    I hope a lot of beginner songwriters see this post.

    Of all the songwriting information and advice that is floating around the internet and is published in books at least 95 % is written in what I call the NASHVILLAIN mindset. It’s scary to see how much of it could be summed up in the phrase “conform to the current trend and you’ll succed”.

    Thanks,

    and beware of the Nashvillains…

  5. Jayson

    The unnamed author has obviously never listened to Waits’ “9th and Hennepin.”

    Also, if you twist your words around to get a rhyme, you become the Beastie Boys and that ain’t a bad thing.

    • Nicholas Tozier

      That’s weird, Jayson; I just sent you an e-mail. And I mean just sent it.

      “9th and Hennepin” is one of my favorite spoken word pieces from Waits.

      I love the Beastie Boys and I find it hard to argue with that. Though I definitely listen for their attitude, not for insight or poetry…

  6. Matt Blick

    Wow. I’d have ripped up more than a page.

    The overarching problem is that this author knows NOTHING about poetry whatsoever. In their mind ‘poetry’ is a synonym for ‘bad writing’

    but some specific points

    I’d say something with no structure is prose.
    Twisting words for the rhyme is bad craft.
    However…
    A lot of old hymns do that, and while it may suck to our ears, they were ok with reversing word order (and even rhyming words ‘on the page’ that didn’t rhyme when sung – can’t think of an example) BUT having extra syllables from line to line was the unforgivable sin. We reverse that nowadays but that’s just our rules vs theirs. It’s bad craft NOW cos that’s the fashion – maybe in a hundred years people will roll their eyes at all the extra syllables we keep sneaking in…

    I agree – any song without a clear title is a bad and unsuccessful song. Consider the following failures
    Paranoid – Black Sabbath
    Bohemian Rhapsody – Queen
    Smells Like Teen Spirit – Nirvana
    Immigrant Song – Led Zeppelin
    Paranoid Android – Radiohead
    Sympathy For The Devil – Rolling Stones
    The Scientist – Coldplay
    Space Oddity – David Bowie
    She Sells Sanctuary – The Cult
    A Day In The Life – The Beatles

    you don’t want to be a failure like those guys, do you?

    Outdated phrases? They don’t work UNLESS you are writing in a ‘period style’ like Take Good Care Of All My Children by Tom Waits. ‘Beulah land?’ fit’s perfectly in a fake pentecostal hymn.

    Must have a story. Not like those well know poems Great Balls Of Fire, I Am The Walrus. Even with modern hits (which is presumably what we’re being taught to write) – can you tell me what the beginning middle and end are in Like A G6 and BEP’s I’ve Gotta Feeling?

    Depressing = Poetry????? Tell that to Radiohead, Pink Floyd, Alice In Chains, Nirvana, Joy Division, Depeche Mode….

    The nuanced difference between poetry and lyrics that I’d make is that a poem is a thing, a lyric is HALF of a thing, the magic is in the relationship between the music and the words

    And the Beasties???

    Dogs love me cos I’m crazy sniffable
    I bet you never knew I got the ill peripheral

    now that’s true poetical lyrics!